Scapegoats, School Shootings, and Safe Spaces

When the headlines are heavy, so are our hearts—and our conversations with our kids. In this episode of Odd Moms On Call, registered nurse and IBCLC Britt is joined by therapist Kara Kushnir, LCSW, and psychologist Jess Rabon, PhD, to unpack the realities of raising children in a climate marked by mass shootings, anti-LGBTQ legislation, rainbow crosswalk bans, and the endless scapegoating of marginalized communities.

Together, they dive into the twisted narratives that follow tragedies, the real statistics on violence, and how misinformation about trans identity and mental health only fuels stigma. They also explore how parents can keep kids safe, foster open dialogue, and raise empathetic humans despite fear-driven politics.

And of course, they end with a hot take: If politicians really cared about kids, they’d pass gun reform—not ban rainbow crosswalks. 

✨ Key Takeaways

• Scapegoating hurts kids: Politicians and media often pin violence on LGBTQ+ identities or mental health rather than addressing real systemic issues like gun access.
  
  
• Statistics tell the truth: Over 98% of mass shooters are men, with trans individuals representing less than 0.1% of cases. Trans people are far more likely to be victims, not perpetrators, of violence.
  
  
• Mental health ≠ violence: Serious mental illness accounts for only 3–5% of violent acts. SSRIs do not cause mass shootings.
  
  
• Conversations matter: Parents can start with foundational, age-appropriate truths—like teaching empathy, inclusivity, and the importance of safe spaces.
  
  
• Connection is power: Fostering open communication, kindness, and community keeps kids grounded even in turbulent times. 

🎧 Soundbites

1. “If politicians really cared about protecting kids, they’d be passing gun reform—not banning rainbow crosswalks.”
   
   
2. “Trans people aren’t the threat—they’re the scapegoat.”
   
   
3. “Mental illness isn’t the cause of mass shootings. In fact, people with mental illness are far more likely to be victims than perpetrators.”
   
   
4. “We don’t get to choose the world our kids are born into, but we do get to choose how we show up in it.”
   
   
5. “At the end of the day, it’s about connection, empathy, and raising humans who know they are safe and loved.”

Got a hot take you want to share?

Send us a message, or email us at Oddmomsoncall@gmail.com. We might just talk about it on the show!

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Transcript

Britt (00:01)
Hey, hey, hey guys. Welcome to episode nine of Odd Moms On Call. I'm Britt and I am so excited to be chatting with you today. Our episode is gonna be quite heavy because headlines have just been heavy. There was the large mass shooting recently in Minneapolis. We're gonna be talking all about mental health, the things about anti-LGBTQ laws, crosswalk removals and all the things and kind of

how we are zooming in on these events and what it means for us and how we are parenting our kids in this crazy climate. So again, I'm Britt. I am the host of the Odd Mom Pod. And I'm excited to be joining y'all today.

Kara Kushnir (00:47)
So joining for my second episode, my name is Kara. I am a mom of one and as well as a licensed clinical social worker and therapist, specializing in working with new moms, parents, kids in all stages and phases. And I'm a very proud ally of the LGBTQ community as well as individuals with mental health needs. So I'm very excited to talk about this today, not the topic itself, but to hopefully

discuss some of the misnomers around it and really help people navigate what they're facing, especially like tomorrow is my son's first day of school. So thinking about that for people right now.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (01:23)
And I'm Jess. I am a licensed psychologist, mom of two, of Psych Talk podcast. And like Kara said, I am passionate about mental health. One of my main areas of focus is working with LGBTQ plus youth. So this is a topic that like both Brit and Kara, I'm very passionate about talking about.

It is heavy, but it's a much needed discussion.

Britt (01:52)
I love this so much. guess I didn't really like go in depth with my intro because I'm cool like that. But I am a member of the LGBTQIA plus community as ⁓ a trans individual myself. I am trans and non-binary ⁓ and very much on the queer spectrum as far as all that goes and a mom of four. I'm currently a registered nurse. That's my main gig working in the emergency department in a high needs area.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (01:58)
Thank

Britt (02:21)
here in Oklahoma City. ⁓ And so it's been interesting to kind of see how all of this is

impacting people among all spectrums of life. And I'm sure you guys see that too with your profession. So let's start with, I guess, the story that's been kind of impossible to avoid this week, which like you were talking about, start of school and everything is another mass shooting. ⁓

Jess Rabon (she/her) (02:27)
you

Britt (02:48)
but instead of focusing on like the weapons or the laws that could actually protect people and the narratives that have been twisted in ways that hit home close specifically for LGBTQ and trans families. So let's kind of jump into that. How are you guys handling that? Are you guys talking to your kids about these things? Like my kids are older, are all.

four of mine are in public schools. so like active shooter drills and things like that are something that has not been like unknown to my kids or my family for a long time. But just as this year first year kind of ramping up into that and how are you navigating that?

Jess Rabon (she/her) (03:31)
So it was interesting. Yesterday we were driving and my daughter who's four and a half just saw a flag that was at one of the fire stations we were passing. It was half mass. And she goes, why is that flag not up all the way? And my husband goes, the shooting this week. And I was like, okay, let's take this different approach. And so I just said, you know, when people die, sometimes flags are put at half mass. And she asked a few questions about it. But ⁓

That's really the extent of talking about it, but with regard to like being a mom and public school. So my kids' daycare, since my daughter has been in daycare, shut down one day a year to do active shooter training for the teachers. And I remember when she was an infant getting that first like letter and being scared, but also saddened, but also thankful.

⁓ like scared that they're preparing that this is a possibility. Saddened that it is a reality. ⁓ but also thankful that even though, you know, the kiddos are so young, the teachers are taking initiative to learn what to do in that situation. But I still hate the fact that we have to even think about that. Kara, how are you feeling with your kids starting school tomorrow?

Kara Kushnir (04:55)
Yeah, so.

Britt (04:56)
my gosh, I

totally messed up who said was starting school tomorrow. That was my bad.

Kara Kushnir (04:59)
Oh, it's fine. It was fine. We're

going around Robin. We're here. It's all good. No, what was I going to say? Yeah, no, my son's four too. It's his second year back in the same school. He's in like a private preschool right now. And I was thinking actually, it's interesting since this has happened that because there were so many other things going on with him starting school that I

dig too deeply into how they handle things like this and what their drills are like. And I'm going to ask them now because it was something that hasn't even crossed my mind. And I think, sadly, that's because it shouldn't have to. ⁓ But I do worry about him. I mean, he's in a program now that supports his needs because he's neurodivergent and just being able to access anything from understanding the directions to why is this happening and how sensory overload that might be. ⁓

Jess Rabon (she/her) (05:35)
you

Kara Kushnir (05:50)
I just think about what that would be like for him. And I started out my career before I ever was in working in private practice, working in school. So I remember doing these drills. And I think about that now as I send him off. I remember doing

training a while ago ⁓ called Alice training. So that was the type of response our school had, which is like a fight back approach. And I remember we had police come in to drill with us.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (06:02)
Thank

Kara Kushnir (06:13)
And ⁓ I took like a cart like a rolling cart and held it up like a shield and they told us they were gonna have people come in

Jess Rabon (she/her) (06:17)
you.

Kara Kushnir (06:19)
and to actually attempt to like fight back to practice this. And I was like the only social worker in the school district and just thinking how like this is in and of itself was like reenactment to practice this is like so activating for people and I was quite activated to the point that ⁓ we did not know that their drill was over because they messed up the communication. So when the guy came in, we all went.

him and I literally like threw something at him and he was like, stop, stop, stop. And I because I was so like, I'm gonna fight back. And the joke was like, if this ever happens, I want you in my classroom to me. And I was like, I hope this never ever happens. And we never have to do this because this also just showed how disjointed this can be. And I think that that is something I carry with me of how we're now asking kids to go into situations and parents have so much trust. And I know what it's like to be on both sides of this now. And it is so unsettling for me. ⁓

And yeah, it's just, the whole thing is just really just so disjointed for me, just thinking like, how are we supposed to navigate all this as parents? My son does not know what's happened. We're at the age now where we've passed cemeteries and we ask about what dying means. So that's coming up. And I think that eventually this is the next phase where he'll start asking me questions about this kind of stuff. And I think I'm holding on for dear life for him to not have to know any of that stuff that I know, because it's so daunting when you've been on both sides of it.

Britt (07:40)
Yeah, I think I've never been a teacher and haven't really ever like worked in the school. So, you know, any of the kind of drills that I've done at work have been primarily like mass casualty drills working at the hospital and how that's different. And, you know, even with this last one, I saw like a news story about one of the nurses who was working at the hospital and one of the children that ended up coming in ended up being one of her children. And I genuinely

Like those aren't things that I think you prepare for in the fact that we are, you know, in a country and in a situation where this is something we are having to prepare for is mind blowing. I think.

I think, you know, I really want to touch to, you know, with this specific school shooting and the shooter being trans and the twisting of the right wing media into now this being an identity story and people are talking big about how it's, you know, it's not the guns again, it's the identities, it's the people, people kill people and, you know, the mental health that people...

Often sight is like the main cause, but then at the same time, we're looking at, you know, Trump and our Republican party across the board are cutting resources and blocking gun reform. And now yet again, weaponizing a false sense of the story, a false side of the story to fuel stigma against LGBTQ plus teens families.

and particularly trans youth. And that's something that's been so big about this administration in general. And something we've been seeing consistently since January now is these attacks. My, one of my, well, two of my kiddos now are saying that they also identify as non-binary. And so, you know, being in Oklahoma, we're seeing, I'm already having a hard time with my kids coming home and being like,

Jess Rabon (she/her) (09:25)
Thank

Britt (09:49)
they don't, they tell me that I'm just a girl and that I need to be quiet. That's what they're telling my kids and in public school, you know, and my, my kids that are, are experiencing this are in first grade and third grade this year. And, it's just terrifying, you know, the, the fuel as far as continuing to kind of like scapegoat trans communities and all of that. it's

It's not just about distraction. It is about scapegoating because we're watching trans people again get blamed for violence that they almost never commit. And the real patterns of who's pulling the trigger and who is actually at the like root of this being an issue are going ignored.

Kara Kushnir (10:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (10:33)
Yeah,

I've seen all over social media of people being like, see, it's a trans issue. And I posted something before, because I knew that was going to be the narrative. I knew it. So I posted something on social media about how, you know, yes, from what we know, the shooter is trans. And

That doesn't mean that their identity is the cause or the reason for the shooting. And if we look at statistics on characteristics of people who are perpetrators of mass shootings, it's overwhelmingly white men. Men in general, think it's about 98%. White men is like 58%. And we don't hear when it's another cisgender man.

it's a man issue. We hear, you know, ⁓ well, it's a mental health issues. He is the exception to the rule. ⁓ but when it's a minority of any type or a marginalized individual, we somehow blame their identity and there are good and bad people of all types. And I think people fail to recognize that because if we're talking about

The shooter in particular, ⁓ and looking at the social political climate, it's like you said, Britt, an easy scapegoat. We already know there are so many negative narratives about the LGBTQIA plus community in general. And so having a trans shooter makes it so much easier for people who believe that narrative to jump on this bandwagon and blame this awful tragedy on the individual being trans.

Kara Kushnir (12:24)
Yeah, I agree. feel like the thing that you mentioned earlier, Brett, just about sort of this idea of, and both of you have around scapegoating that's really critical, is that two things that come to mind for me, and I'm thinking about even just some of the queer kids that I'm working with in my offices and just that I know and sort of the conversations that have come up in the recent time that has passed since this occurred around ⁓ what are people going to say to me and, you know,

I've saw this posted on social media and I think what's really challenging is that there was this automatic jump to this identifier of this one piece of this person that was latched onto around, think, not only like, this is the reason, but we didn't even.

know anything about this person. I remember seeing the picture of this person and their name and then this one piece and it's like that became the story and the investigation had not even begun. And I was fascinated by that. And I think that's what I've shared with the kids that I've worked with of you're facing being a person that is going to have a narrative crafted about you before you even open your mouth because people look at you, they make assumptions about you, and you're already facing this and this is going to be fuel to the fire and it's not fair. And just being able to help them.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (13:27)
Okay.

Kara Kushnir (13:42)
feel validated in that I think is really critical and just acknowledging that piece of this and finding safety for them of who are your people that you can talk to about this and like if you notice something is happening or feeling unsafe, do you have people that you can go to? Are there

Jess Rabon (she/her) (13:48)
you

Kara Kushnir (13:57)
people that we need to identify that are not safe right now so we can figure out what to do in those situations? And I think the part that's saddest for me is navigating that with parents who are saying, know, really kind of saying to their kid,

And I think from a really good place, but it's such a misfortune, you hey, I think you should probably be a little bit more quiet about who you are right now. Hey, I think you should probably, you know, keep this part of you a little more muted. And I think that that's such a, I mean, that's a problem in and of itself, but it's such a complicated piece for these parents too, because you're trying to figure out how to love your kid for exactly who they are, but also know that loving them for who they are and being allowed to do that out loud.

now puts you at risk because this one thing happened that has potentially zero to do with this person's desire to commit this mass crime. I think that's really and I say potential because I'm not going to say I know everything about this person, right? But like, doesn't really seem like that's like that this is the reason right? It's a part of this person and we are I think we have a very hard time as a society. To your point to just shirking things out and going

Is it this thing or is it this person is bad, has access to something, ⁓ is struggling, are there layers to this person? It's funny because every time I hear there's a mass shooting, your brain will automatically create a picture for you of what this person looks like and it will be different depending on who you're talking to unless you're thinking about the research and evidence. ⁓

but a lot of the times people will go to whatever their bias is of who this person could be. And it's just so problematic for everybody.

Britt (15:41)
I think too, I'm in this weird point now where like, you know, I, when I hear when that there's a mass shooting, like I automatically almost go to look for information about the perpetrator because I'm like waiting and weeding out for what they're going to pick apart instead of like actually looking at the deep understanding of what's going on. I mean, so just statistically speaking, this is, you know, fact checked, but about 98 % of mass shooters are male.

which means only about 2-3 % are female, making female mass shooters extremely rare in general. But the fact that out of, think I saw a thing that said like there's like 4193 mass shooters and like four of them have been trans. which means that not only is that there's no evidence that trans individuals are more prone to violence, but it actually proves that trans individuals are even less prone to violence than

the cisgender counterparts. And so, you know, when we start scapegoating trans people after incidents like this, it's again, a distraction from the systemic issues, which are like access to guns or the complete lack of dysregulation of guns. ⁓ It does stem from like untreated trauma and things. And I was really interested in the investigation of this, if this was going to come out to be like,

Okay, was this person a former student of, you know, the Catholic school that like, because they are trans and had like that, but I think it gets so quickly pinned to one thing is like, ⁓ that was the one thing that made them insane. That was the mental that was their showing of their mental instability.

And it's like, what message does that send to our kids or other trans kids who are being blamed for this violence that they rarely commit? But how do we also protect our kids from internalizing this narrative that maybe because they are trans or whatnot, that they are now inherently more likely to be violent?

Kara Kushnir (17:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that's a great question. think to your point, like how do we, this whole idea of like, it's not your identity is mental health, or it's not because they're mentally ill, it's because they're trans and trans is a mental illness and sort of like the do, there's sort of this overlap that also gets put there, right? ⁓ I think what's really challenging,

is that, even if people wanted to argue that it's mental health, and this goes into something deeper, I think in our conversation of like now mental health becomes the additional lazy scapegoat of all of this, is it's not your mental, it's not the guns, it's mental health. Also, we're now gonna take away access to mental health care treatment and funding for mental health care, and we're gonna villainize SSRIs and all these other things going on, ⁓ but it's mental health. So it's mental health, but we're not gonna treat mental health.

thoughts and prayers. And that's what really bothers me is I'm kind of like, so what are we doing? And I think to you know, I say that in such a sarcastic way, but such a direct way, because to your original question of like, well, how are we talking to kids about this? I don't know. As a therapist and a parent, I'm struggling with conceptualizing how I will talk to my own kid about this one day and even have to really sit down and process and prepare so much more intentionally than I think I would have to with kids who might bring this up in session.

because I'm constantly like having this Twilight Zone feeling of trying to wrap my head around it, to be completely honest. And I think that, you know, going back to this idea that we're gonna say it's one thing or the other, the reality is that anything associated with the individual who committed this act that can be identified as the reason other than firearms is what's going to be identified. And it's...

It's a big part of, think the hard part of helping kids navigate this is helping kids understand what's the common denominator across all of these situations and helping them kind of reach that conclusion together with you of sort of, hey, like this is the difference. And I think also helping kids understand that, yes, like it's not all be all that like, yes, a gun is not gonna do something by itself. It needs somebody to pick it up. That being said, there's a difference between.

somebody who is so ill that they're in a place where they want to do this or so ⁓ potentially leaning in one very extreme direction that this is the only option that they believe that they have or choose. And then somebody who's struggling with their mental health because now my other concern is how are kids going to actually talk about mental health ⁓ and kids who are digesting.

sort of the same narrative from their home environment around, it's not the guns, it's mental health, or it's because they're trans, or it's because they're anti Catholic or whatever it was in the story. I think it's it's so challenging because now I'm afraid that again, I think people don't think about this. Well, now the message is don't talk about your mental health and don't be who you are. And like, don't do this. And anything that's different, anything that is seen as anti what we hold value to, don't talk about it. And so

That's the part I think that we have an obligation to talk to our kids about of trying to help them, at least in our families, say, here's what you can and should talk to me about and always feel safe talking to me about, I want to know. And sort of helping them peel away the layers of these misnomers because like I said earlier, it's confusing for us to understand how to wrap our head around the narratives, how are they going to, you know?

Jess Rabon (she/her) (21:20)
Yeah, I.

completely agree with the things you're saying, Kara, and as a parent and also somebody that works with primarily adolescents and a large proportion of my caseload is LGBTQ+. I know, or I'm expecting this week these conversations to be coming up because we know, especially as somebody living in the South, that trans youth in particular, but LGBTQIA +, youth generally speaking, ⁓

already face so much harassment, ⁓ isolation, things like that. And the thing that keeps coming up for me with this narrative of the reason is because the shooter was trans. You have people, especially online, but grown adults that are now basically bullying trans individuals, whether they're not

actually talking about a particular individual or not. But just hearing those messages like, ⁓ you have a mental illness or trans people commit mass shootings, they're the issue, things like that. And so then I'm thinking about, you know, kids, teens, even adults internalizing those messages when they're already receiving other negative messages about their identity. And then I think of another layer of if we look at the research on

factors, like there's no one clear profile of a mass shooter, but there are heavily researched factors that are associated with increased risk of gun violence. History of trauma is a big one. And for school shooters in particular, bullying is a big one. And so now you have a bunch of strangers basically bullying people they don't even know for their identity. And what is that going to do? Like, and I'm not saying everybody obviously who is bullied is going to go commit

a crime or do something horrible. That is not what I'm saying at all. But like if somebody is already feeling really low and isolated and then they're getting these messages that like, you're nothing more than a school shooter. Like what's not to say you take their isolation, you take their bullying, maybe they have a trauma history, maybe they do have poor mental health, maybe they have access to guns and you put all those factors together and who knows what is going to happen. And I think, Carrie, you said this really well as well. It's

There's so many layers. There's not one factor. And I think that's another hard thing when talking about kids in the developmentally appropriate way. You know, my daughter's four. Like there's only so much that she is going to understand. ⁓ But I think when we do have conversations with kids as parents, as you know, we're all in helping professions here, therapists, nurses, we need to

talk about the nuance and make it clear it's not black and white. And you can do that in a developmentally appropriate manner, even if it's something like, don't know all that was going on. There's a lot of reasons people might do bad things. And then even asking your kids, at times that maybe you've done something bad when you didn't listen, what was going on? Or have you ever seen somebody do something bad? What might be some reasons?

Like you said, Kara, just opening up that discussion with your kids and, you know, encouraging them to come to you about certain things. Because I think at the end of the day, open communication with our kids, whether they be our own children or kids that we work with is so vital in general, but especially in then identifying when maybe somebody is struggling or noticing warning signs that maybe they're not doing okay.

there's the potential for something tragic to happen.

Britt (25:08)
I agree 100%. I think as a parent, there are so many few things that I feel like I can help my children to understand how they make an impact every day and how the little things that we do can make big impacts. I think bullying is such a huge one. think honestly, we could probably do a whole episode on bullying and how we're addressing that and how kids are seeing that because even now, the

the that kids are bullied with the depths of it being able to be on social media and things like that is so much deeper than anything anybody from our level of life can even fathom because that just wasn't a thing that we dealt with growing up. I think that what Kara said the importance about it making sure that we turning it back to

like ensuring that our kids, I mean, you both said this, ensuring that our kids really know that they can come and talk to us ⁓ and having that open dialogue of ⁓ discussion. But also I think too that really opens up the door for like helping to de-stereotype and de-stigmatize a lot of things too. ⁓ In our little rundown here, just some like data points here. Diagnosed serious mental illness is not

a main driver in school shootings across the board. So the Columbia mass murder database found that lifetime psychotic symptoms ⁓ were found in about 11 % of mass murders. And of those among mass shooters with firearms was about less than 8%. So that study concluded that focusing prevention solely on serious mental illnesses would have limited impact.

because compared with gun access and substance misuse, poor violence and things like that, that those things were just as big of contributing factors. And that most violence in society is not actually caused by serious mental illness. That only about three to 5 % of violent acts to people ⁓ are from people with, my goodness, are from people with serious mental illness.

but they're, and those with mental illness are actually much more likely to be victims of abuse and violent acts than perpetrators of them, which is, think is a huge conversation that like I have with my kids in general that like often, know, neurodivergent kids are kids with high needs that like they are often painted as like a danger to other children and reality. When we look at actual studies that

those are some of our most vulnerable populations and that those are the people who are most at risk. And so I think those are conversations that, you know, obviously developmentally appropriate. That doesn't make sense for a four year old. But for my 11 year old, like those are conversations that we're having about ensuring that we aren't stereotyping those types of things or diagnoses or things like that, because that doesn't necessarily mean anybody is more at risk for anything else.

⁓ The other last couple statistics that the FDA warned that suicidality risk in youth is not equal to homicidal ideation and that antidepressants that carry a black box warning about increased risk of suicidal thoughts and behaviors in teens, children, young adults. ⁓

does not say that they cause homicidal or mass shooting behavior. ⁓ And I think that's a big one right now. think SSRIs are under a large attack from our government and the thoughts about that. you know, there's no credible evidence that SSRIs cause mass shootings. And in one study, they actually found that lifetime antidepressant use among mass shooters

was only about 4%, which is actually below the general population rate, which I think kind of speaks to the fact that people who are likely to commit these acts are people who aren't getting the proper support or medications or things that maybe these people were something that could have benefited from some of these sorts of medications, but because we are demonizing these medications, it's only going to get worse.

Kara Kushnir (29:40)
Yeah, I think that to your point, it goes back to the fact that what policies are or are not happening are going to continue to drive the challenges we're facing and or change them. it's not just these policies around mental health. It's also the symbolic impact of the policy. And so, you know, to that point, thinking about the fact that how we look at the overlap between who we're talking to and how they view what is mental illness or mental health and what is identity or sexuality.

and gender identity as well. People are sort of not understanding those concepts individually anyway, and they're sort of blending them together now. And the symbolic attack that's coming from the way that policy is or is not being driven and or being responded to is now happening in other places, just like it around mental health. So in Florida, we're seeing like rainbow crosswalks and murals being erased and

we're constantly seeing shifts in the way that communities are now really directly starting to undo or overtly share negative assertions and perspectives towards the LGBTQ plus community and families. And it's really impacting, I think, safety, feelings of safety, feelings of stability in communities. I know I certainly have had many conversations actually with some of... ⁓

my own clients who are queer parents about their experiences and their fears of what their families may experience. ⁓ And I guess I'm curious for you to what your thoughts are on how do we explain that erasure, the omission, the ⁓ if things are happening in our communities or kids are seeing things in the news around

changes that are being made and sort of what that message is and how we respond to that message when it comes to what they might be facing or what their friends are talking about or other families are either asserting positive sentiments to or also just sharing when they're around and what you guys are noticing about that.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (31:38)
I think, you know, all these conversations are difficult in general. you know, when I think about like conversations I'm having with kids, quote unquote, it's usually not my kids because my kids are one in four. But I think about the conversations I have with my clients. And a lot of times, you know, it's a balance of just giving them space to say what they have heard, their understanding. There are times they will ask me for clarification on things.

And a lot of times when that happens to be as objective as possible, especially if we're an in-person session, I'm like, Hey, let's look this up together. Let's look up a few articles together because obviously I don't want any of my biases or preconceived notions to come into the therapy room and ⁓ influence my clients one way or another, especially because I'm not their parent. ⁓ but you know, Carrie, you said something about like,

the lack of safety and erasure. you know, I know we've been talking a lot about the trans community and LGBTQIA plus individuals. And we'll continue to talk about that because that's probably the largest group that we're seeing this, not just with the recent shooting, we're seeing this under this administration, but even thinking about like SSRI use and going back to something you said, Brett, like I can only fathom how many people who are on SSRIs now are feeling more ashamed.

then maybe they already were, maybe there's people that are like, I'm going to stop it because I don't want people, even if I know it helps me, I don't want people to assume that I am going to go out and commit a mass shooting and then people aren't going to talk about how they're feeling. to your point, Britt, that you made earlier, if they're not on the medication that is helping them, who knows what that outcome is going to be. ⁓ And, know, we're just villainizing so many

groups of people. I just feel like, like I said, the conversations are hard, they're necessary. But I think the first step is giving people space to, you know, talk about what they've heard and understand, especially when you're talking to kids, because you don't want to give them too much information that overwhelms them. So I always like to start a conversation like what's your understanding? What have you heard? What are your biggest concerns? And let them take the lead. And I think as parents and

You know, this is not the same thing at all, but we watched Wicked in my household today. So it was a lot of lessons about being kind to people because your actions have consequences. And I think there are ways to integrate developmentally appropriate, you know, conversations. know, hopefully my four-year-old doesn't come home this week saying like people are talking about the Minnesota shooting, but if she does, we would have a conversation about it. But I think, you know, going back to the themes of bullying that we've already touched on, you know,

talking about people are different, know, these are things that you can notice. If somebody's alone at the lunch table, invite them over. If you notice kids are being mean to other kids, speak up or tell a teacher. Like teaching kids behaviors young, even if we're not talking about the exact thing, teaching kids about inclusivity and kindness, I think that modeling those behaviors and teaching those behaviors young, even if you're not having the direct conversations.

can be helpful steps to then opening the door to the harder conversations when they are old enough to have them.

Britt (35:10)
I think this is so huge and something like now that like, I feel like I'm more like I'm getting to that like veteran parent stage, right? Where like I've parented enough kids and like we've gone, I've done the school thing. I've done that with like multiple kids and I fostered for years. So I've had up to kids up to 13 before. like I have, I think it's, that's where you really start to see though, like the difference in having these conversations early. And like,

and having these conversations in like a foundational way. And, you know, when we're talking about like this erasure of the symbolic erasure, when we're talking about, you know, how are we making sure that we're giving our kids the foundational knowledge and securement and understanding that if something is said to them that they're not completely confused and taken aback because they have some sort of foundational understanding. But like, also,

How do we make sure that we are not burdening our kids with these additional things? Because now we're finding, know, with our age range of people, we are so parentified that that carries its own other level of trauma of being so aware that that can also cause issues. And so, you know, I think the main, the big thing that we can really do is ensuring that we are,

teaching our kids that foundational understanding of like, not everybody's gonna believe the same thing as you do. And I think that's, you know, with two of my kids now being on that like LGBTQIA ⁓ plus spectrum in some way or capacity, and my kids are still young, so who knows what that's really gonna look like at the end of it. But like, that's something I have to tell them often that not everybody is going to understand you. And...

Kara Kushnir (37:03)
you

Britt (37:04)
Everybody is gonna have an opinion and I tell my kids all the time opinions are like buttholes everybody has one but that doesn't always mean they're for sharing and And so like that's what we talk about and that's my kid, know, I We do have a lot of conversations that come home from the school of like this the the boy at school asked me why I use

the girls bathroom if I'm a they or them and you know talking through those kinds of things where like those are hurtful rhetoric that other kids are hearing from their parents and you can't control that and you can't control what your kids are going to come in contact with but like the only thing that we really can do is making sure that like we are holding on to those important symbol like symbolic things in our homes and like even though

the world outside of us and the teachers outside of and the kids outside of the confines of my family, especially being in here in Oklahoma aren't going to understand why you at eight think that you can understand that you don't feel like either gender. That's not gonna make sense to a lot of people, but like it makes sense to me, makes sense to your dad, it makes sense to the people that love you and care about you. And.

making sure that like we are encouraging the sharing of trans pride and the conversations around that and ⁓ breaking stigmas as we can. But like I am at the point now where you do, your kids do have to be aware at some point because somebody's gonna say something. And so I think it's huge. ⁓ With that, know.

Kara Kushnir (38:46)
Yeah.

Britt (38:51)
we can kind of jump over to like anti LGBTQIA plus legislation and how Kara was kind of talking about, we're starting to see policy matching this harmful rhetoric and how are we doing that? And how are we dealing with that? And, you know, I explained to my kids, well, do you like to sit down to pee or do you stand up to pee? And they both have vulvular genitalia. And so they're like, well, I sit down and I said, well, which bathroom has better places to sit down?

the girls bathroom. That's why you use that bathroom. You know, things like that. that's been a big, it's hard being in Oklahoma because like the school isn't going to adhere to my kids' pronouns. They're not going to adhere to ⁓ if they decide to change their name or preferred pronouns at school or like none of that is going to be expected. But it's hard when you're just trying to teach your kids like

they aren't gonna understand, but you understand you and that's more than they understand about themselves and that's why they dislike you. And like that's hard, but also like conversations that we should be having. So what are you guys seeing in your areas as far as like laws about schools, bathrooms, pronouns, things like that? Are those conversations you guys have started to have with your kids as they're entering that era?

Kara Kushnir (40:13)
Yeah, I definitely seen it when I was in schools. I'm very fortunate to be in New Jersey. And we have some pretty awesome legislation compared to other states around protecting LGBTQ youth, ⁓ including kids are allowed to use their preferred names and not their dead name when they're in school and their parents do not have to be notified so that it can happen in school, but we're keeping them safe in case parents don't have the same ideology or understanding of their kids. ⁓

I've experienced parents being really angry about that and I've taken the heat for kids because I was like, hey, like I care more that your kid is safe and is themselves in school than if it's hard for you. And I respect that, but there's actually a law and having to educate people on that and that's tough. ⁓ So I definitely think it's better than it has been. can see in my being as a therapist in a group practice, I have other clinicians who work on my team who are in schools by day. And we talk about this sometimes and

every district is a little bit different. So while there is legislation being protected, there's a lot of subtleties happening in schools. I have a colleague who works in a school district with a pretty conservative Board of Ed. And they have been very clearly directed like in June, hey, like no rainbows. And they're like, yeah, we're gonna do that anyway. And you can fire me if you want to. So there's a lot of people trying to fight back the good fight. And it's hard because going back to erasure and just feelings of safety.

kids feel safer when they see symbols. And it can start so young. ⁓ Something I was thinking about in that prior point that I think is a good example of how do we foster that in our kids, especially if we can recognize the utility of that and sort of do things that are setting the stage for acceptance across the board like my son is for, it starts with just how we respond to basic things that they question or do. So for example, if my son sees me putting makeup on, he'll go, me.

Mommy, why are you doing that? And I go, because I like it. And he'll go, why do you like it? It's fun. Can I do makeup? Yeah, here's a brush. Do your thing. And he'll put on some bronzer or brush. I'm like, it's a little too much. We got to tone it down, friend. But you do you. Or if I was painting my nails, he'll be like, I love your nails, mama. Can I paint my nails? Yeah, sure. Go ahead. And I'm really glad that I have a husband who's also a teacher who will be like, yeah, let him do it. Who cares? And it's not.

like we decided that somehow in the society that like all these things are specific to a gender and he's like, yeah, like it's paint, like it's color, like who cares? So it's, it's very much about those narratives that we can instill in our kids earlier. And also just explaining things very matter of factly. So like when I have a really good friend of mine, I have, and they have children and it is two moms and my son was like, they have two mommies. And I was like, yeah. And he said, that's cool.

And that was the end of that conversation. Because he's four and it was just like, yeah, that's how it is. ⁓ And I think I think that that's, that's even just a way that it doesn't have to be like this long with the conversation, especially if you have little kids of it can be done in the way that you show up to these experiences with such an example of this is just normal, quote unquote, like this is just how we do things and people are being people, you know, it's all kinds of kinds. And we're all good with that. And I think that's sort of something that can be a very simple way of helping

push back on some of those experiences, you're laying the foundation for kids to notice when something is being pushed back and feel a sense of, wait, that's not what I learned. Like I learned this was totally fine. Why are you upset about this so that that can help push back? ⁓ And I think that a lot of us as adults have the responsibility to notice when kids are in systems or experiences where they're going to experience that push back. ⁓ And it's tricky when it's legislated. I mean, I'm licensed in other states where it's not like that. And I know that

I'm very fortunate in the Northeast that it's a little bit of a different climate. And we have some pretty strong advocates in this community doing work to ensure the safety of our queer kids and just families. But ⁓ it's something that from a de facto standpoint, not necessarily a legal standpoint, it's happening in communities everywhere. And the unfortunate part is it paves the way for law to change because there becomes that subtle message that, we want to remove quote unquote gender ideology.

from health education when really we're just talking about bodies and identities and it's just like who people are. And that's, think, one of the challenges is people are afraid of what they don't know or understand. So the more that we teach kids that this is okay and there is a sense of knowledge is power, that's where we can dismantle things. But I think it's really hard and we're on an uphill battle because kids are getting exposed to...

Jess Rabon (she/her) (44:33)
Okay. Okay.

Kara Kushnir (44:52)
things being quote unquote okay that are really just hateful and harmful. And that's where a lot of our work is gonna lie.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (44:58)
Yeah, so I live in South Carolina. It's very different than New Jersey. So in May of 2024, a law was passed in our state to ban any gender affirming care for individuals under 18. So no puberty blockers, no hormones. In the original draft,

It also targeted mental health professionals. That was taken out because then mental health professionals, including myself, like wrote to legislators to be like, what do you think mental health professionals are doing? We're literally treating their comorbid like depression, anxiety, things like that. ⁓ But in that legislation was also school. So like Kara, I know you said in New Jersey, you know, kids are allowed to use whatever name they want. In South Carolina, if children use a name that is different than their

birth name, they have to get permission from parents to use it in the school system. And so as somebody that works with a lot of teens who ⁓ are trans, non-binary, gender diverse, I know this was a conversation I had with lot of parents going into this, well, I guess last year school year, because we've been back in school for a few weeks, but like the 2024 to 2025 school year ⁓ and how they can best advocate for their kids.

⁓ so yes, I unfortunately live in a state that is not inclusive or accepting of, ⁓ LGBTQIA plus youth. But I will say even though that is the case, we do have like pockets of communities that are doing really good work, advocating, showing up to, you know, hearings, rallying, writing, you know, town or legislation or, you know, all, all of those things. ⁓

And so with regard to conversation care, had to laugh because I have also had similar conversations with my four year old ⁓ about same sex parents where I have a handful of ⁓ friends that are same sex couples have kids. And my daughter twice now when a family has two dads tells me she wishes she had two dads, which I don't really know how to take.

But when a family has had two moms, she's like, okay, cool. I'm like, okay, what does that say that you want two dads, but don't feel the same about two moms. But like you said, it's such a simple conversation. Like literally, we are going to a birthday party this coming weekend for a colleague of mine's daughter. she just asked a question and I was like, no, I work with this daddy and then her other daddy's name is this. And she just looked at me and she's like, she has two daddies too? And I said, yeah. when she told me she was, she had two daddies as well. End of conversation.

Like it's not hard. We, think as adults, and I say this all the time, we overcomplicate things and we think that kids won't understand things because we are thinking of things at like a higher order level. And we as adults realize all the nuance and complexities of sexual orientation, gender identity. We know the views on all sides of the issue. And so we're like, this is too complicated for kids.

But kids just see two loving parents and like, that's cool. Can I go color now? Cause I'm over this conversation. Like it's not difficult, but when people are scared to even address the questions their kids bring up, that's when kids then pick up on our discomfort and are like, ⁓ am I not allowed to ask this? And then that's when kids, and this goes for anything, but that's when kids go to peers.

Kara Kushnir (48:13)
Yeah.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (48:33)
or the internet to find out things. like as parents, we should all have a goal to foster relationships with our kids where they can come and ask us questions, even if they're hard, even if we as parents might be taken aback or get upset at first because otherwise they're going to find out answers from somewhere else. Britt, you said something very similar to that a few minutes ago. Like kids are going to, if we're not having the conversations, they're still going to find out. And would you rather them find out information from you or from

little Johnny in the back of the class.

Britt (49:04)
Yeah, I think I have to often remind myself that like people with opinions opposite of mine are also being very loud in their homes to their children and that you know a lot of times like people that don't want to share this information to kids or they don't think that the kids are gonna get it or they don't want them to know about it because it makes them more likely to be that way. It's all because that the like

under arching theme of that is that that is a negative way to be and it's going to be I think it'll it'll I think if we give kids more information kids will call out adults like my kids will call me out faster than any adult will call me out if I say something that sounds funky or not true to my values or something that like is starkly different than how I usually act or behave like my first my kids are gonna be the first one to be like that was weird mom like why did you do that

And I think, you know, when it goes to show like the level of communication that you have with your kids when you are able to talk about these ⁓ sorts of things and to give them that comfort in talking about things with you. And I think, you know, as adults, especially with adults with various life backgrounds and experiences, like the nuancedness of all of these topics feel so large because of people's

misunderstanding of a lot of the things that helping our kids and giving them language and understanding of honestly just the solid basics of it, like just the solid basics of like, people can love who they're gonna love and like you're gonna love who you're gonna love and like that looks different. Everybody is different and all of our individual things are what make us beautiful and incredible and what makes us different is what makes our

world a better place because we all can learn and grow from each other. ⁓ And so I think, you know, when we're talking about these like big scary things, right, like these big horrible headlines, shootings, laws disappearing, all of these like, scary things that like, really the only age appropriate ways that we can kind of explain these issues is, is boiling it down to the basicness of like, at the end of the day, we're all humans.

and we, we all have our own individual experience and each of our experience is important. And, know, kids are going to come home with questions. Well, like, why do they think my kids come home with questions? Why do they think that I shouldn't be able to be they or them? Why, why is that confusing for them? Why don't they understand? And, you know, at the end of the day, it's, it's.

helping our kids to understand and navigate that like the human experience as individual and that empathy is important and showing them the community parts of their life that are important and loving and affirming and how we can create safe spaces and be a light in the bullying and being aware, having our children be aware of when other kids are being bullied and how they can

be a light to those things because at the end of the day, we can't control everybody, but we can only control what we feed to our kids. I think showing them the importance and love and connection and important of staying connected to each other and to our safe spaces is really one of the only ways we can help prepare our kids to navigate this crazy ass world.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (52:49)
love that you just brought up connectiveness because I think so often we underestimate the power of being connected with one another. And I mean, even bringing it back to the first discussion we had specifically on the mass shooting, like, and I know I mentioned this earlier, but like factors like isolation are huge when it comes to mental health are huge when it comes to how we look at and navigate.

the world and if we are not feeling connected as humans, whether that's with our kids or with other people around us, we're going to feel bad. We're going to feel lost. We're going to feel isolated. And what does that do to us? You know, it worsens our mental health. We often will reinforce that feeling of isolation. Well, nobody wants to be with me, so I'm just going to retreat even more. We're probably going to spend too much time online and get all those messages, those negative messages that we were talking about. And I think

You know, just connectiveness is so important for so many aspects of life. So I just wanted to highlight what you said, Britt, because like, that's what really stuck out to me, like starting with our kids, but also with our partners and our friends and our colleagues. Like we, need to be connected with one another and, you know, have those safe spaces where we can communicate our thoughts and feelings about all of these hard things that we've been talking about.

Kara Kushnir (54:17)
Yeah, I agree. I think that it relates very much to connectedness too. But for me, it always boils down to like, how do we teach our kids empathy and what makes us human? The humanity piece is the fundamental issue I think that people constantly are forgetting about. It's am I red or am I blue? I black or am I white? Am I gay or am I straight? It's like, I'm human. And I think that

All of those identifiers are important, but when we really are trying to strip back the challenges and the focus on the differences to get to the place of how can we actually realize that the person in front of me is not my enemy, just because they're different and or navigate relationships with people who haven't maybe gotten to that point or maybe not don't have the same ideology of wanting to meet me where I am. I can recognize something in myself that that maybe is connected to them to either say this is why they can't do that yet or

help our kids at least to do the work of focusing on those things that make us connected rather than make us different. And also, I think what's really challenging is that there's a lot of fear for us as parents around how do we have hope in these situations? I I think to myself that people can always grow and change and we can teach our kids to grow and change, but it's not our job necessarily to have to help a lot of people change their perspective. It's like, and I think helping kids

find the line between being themselves and always looking at people as human first while recognizing that they are entitled to safety and to not have to be subjected to bad experiences, abuse, really ill intent by other people, especially adults, and just helping them develop an understanding or a literacy around this might be said about this group of people, but who's it coming from and what's their lens and how that might not be your lens so we can

actually recognize that's not for us or not helpful. Here's where we're going to align with our values and live our life out from that perspective and help them to feel empowered to do that rather than to feel fearful or get stuck in the anger of what the other people are doing. ⁓ It's much to that point when I think about even just going back to the original concept of the school shooting that we've been talking about today, sending kids off to school, helping parents come from a place of living.

in a place of what is for them instead of what if, that means really living fully and authentically and being intentional and having that be your compass can be a much more empowering place to navigate this stuff from than feeling like you're stuck in and how do I make the change or what are we up against? But it's a dance between pushing back and pushing the needle forward and trying to create change for the society and the world we want our kids to live in.

and protecting our peace. And that's something we're gonna constantly be dancing with our kids in.

Britt (57:06)
Yeah, I think, I think, you know, that connection piece, like, obviously, I think that's a huge thing. And I think the biggest thing too, in all of this as parents is, and as moms is making sure that we are staying grounded in ourselves in this and staying grounded in our community. Like Jess said, making sure that we are ensuring that we are balancing, you know, our awareness of what's going around us and our worry of like, what is going

impact our kids, but also like ensuring that we are staying grounded for ourselves because at the end of the day, like we can't show up for our kids. We can't show up for the other kids in our community that may need us. we can't show up for our, either our clients or our patients or however, like making sure that even though all of this life feels like a shit storm right now that we're staying connected to ourselves.

⁓ with that, now that we've gotten serious, now let's get spicy. It's time for our favorite segment, hot takes from hot moms. So who wants to go ahead and take this one?

Jess Rabon (she/her) (58:20)
I can read it. So our hot take for the week is, or for this episode, if politicians actually cared about protecting kids, they'd be passing gun reform, not banning rainbow crosswalks. What are people's thoughts?

Britt (58:36)
Oh, I mean, for sure. I mean, it's not about the kids. It's not about the kids. Like, you can't look at the number one killer for children in our country and say that that's your main concern when you're really ensuring that, you know, don't even, like, Epstein files are kept secret and, like, you know, gun reform's not happening and, you know.

mental health resources and LGBTQIA plus hotlines, like all of these things that are proven to truly protect and like help children live longer and better lives are not.

not seeming to be the top of priority list. so I completely agree with this. they genuinely, politicians were genuinely worried about the children of our country, I think our country would look a lot different.

Kara Kushnir (59:32)
Yeah, I agree. I agree with the statement, unfortunately. think that if I think if politicians saw the dollar signs equated to kids, maybe they'd care. I think that's part of the problem is it's follow the money and follow the lobbyists and, you know, the NRA and these organizations have quite a poll. And so they're getting the focus on them and what they want. And ⁓

as a parent that really enrages me because as we know, kids are priceless. So yeah, but I agree. think that if they actually cared about the kids and they wanted to do something about it, it's like the whole thing. Like if he wanted to, he would. If they wanted to, they would. That's the problem. They just do not care.

Britt (1:00:14)
Well, none of

their kids are in public schools. So like this isn't actually like a threat for any of their children or any of those that actually even have children, right? Like, like that's what's crazy is it's not. There's. That's that's it.

Kara Kushnir (1:00:23)
Mm-hmm, that's true.

Yeah, they're legislating

Jess Rabon (she/her) (1:00:30)
Yeah, I agree. I mean, going back to something we already talked about in this episode, I think doing things like banning rainbow crosswalks is a scapegoat. It's a distraction. I think also, you know, if I'm looking at this very objectively, enforcing the gun laws we have actually, you know, ⁓ passing certain gun reforms, even things like red flag laws in every state, there's not in every state, or, you know, mental health resources. And yes, like I know we've mentioned.

there's been billions of dollars in cutting that, but like even that aside, like if we truly look to overhaul our healthcare system, we all work in healthcare, whether mental health or ⁓ physical health or both here, like that takes a lot of effort. And that's not an excuse, but I think a lot of times our government, regardless of who is in power, goes for things that are easier to do. And whether that be easier and actually make it.

an effective change or easier as a distraction or scapegoat because the reality is, like I'm sure the three of us sitting here could all say like truly overhauling our mental health system would take a lot of work, a lot of collaboration, a lot of layers and things like that. Do I think our kids are worth that work? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, like people want to pass legislation that's quick.

that speaks to the things that like the hot topics that people are currently enraged about. It's a lot easier to pass something to say like, hey, you have to paint over the rainbow sidewalk or walkway. I mean, I don't realistically know how much it costs to paint over a rainbow crosswalk, but I'm 99.999 % sure it's a lot cheaper than trying to reform the mental health care system or

It takes less time than getting a very partisan government to come to agreement on something like gun reform. So, once again, none of that's an excuse. absolutely agree with the hot take. And I think part of it is distraction, scapegoat, and they try to do things that don't take nearly as much effort as the things that would make true change.

Britt (1:02:52)
One, think two, would boil down to like a large number of money that is being on, or that's being fraudulently funded to these big billionaires who are making these. It would actually require those funds going to things that they should be going to. And I think that's a huge, and Carol was right on the money with that too. And you're looking at dollar signs that it seems easier to.

pay out of money to over paint a sidewalk and some lawyer to defund that or to to like stand up for that and say that that was the right thing to do than it does to rebuild a whole system. ⁓ I like this quote says we don't get to choose the world our kids are born into but we get to choose how we show up in it and showing up together that's how we build something better.

So with that, we can't solve all of these problems in one podcast episode, but we can point y'all towards people who are fighting the good fight. So before we sign off, here are some resources that we think that every parent should have bookmarked currently. ⁓ For Democracy and Protest, check out the Little Justice Leader. It's a monthly activism box and curriculum for kids. And there is a kids book about activism, which is great for ages six to 10.

If you're talking about war and violence, PBS Parents has a great guide called How to Help Kids Feel Safe When the News is Scary, and National Child Traumatic Stress Network offers resources for families navigating war, terrorism, and other disasters. If you're looking for resources on how to understand the current humanitarian crisis, UNICEF and WHO are reporting on famine and malnutrition in Gaza still, and groups like Hamada Shows Kitchen.

show us what resilience and community care looks like. For political literacy, that's kid friendly. Try Kid News, it's NUZ, KID NUZ, which is a five minute daily podcast for kids, or the 10 News, which it breaks down current events for ages eight to 12. And the News-O-Matic app is also a great tool for global perspectives for kids as well.

For parents who want to take action, we recommend looking into Moms Rising for advocacy on family policy, the Vote Momma Foundation to support moms stepping into politics, and We the Parents, a non-Pyton support group that equips families with civic tools. All of these links are in our show notes, so pick one, share it with a friend, or talk about it at your dinner table, because parenting isn't just about raising kids, it's about raising the next generation of citizens, and that's where all of our real power lies.

So thanks so much for joining us today. We appreciate y'all and thanks Kara and Jess for hanging out with me in chat tonight.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (1:05:44)
Well, thank you.

Britt (1:05:45)
All