More Than The Baby Blues: Understanding PMADs

Motherhood can be beautiful, but it can also be brutal—especially when it comes to mental health. 

In this episode of Odd Moms On Call, our panel of mothers and mental health professionals has an unfiltered conversation about perinatal mood and anxiety disorders (PMADs), birth trauma, and the systemic failures that leave mothers struggling. 

We share personal experiences with postpartum depression and anxiety, discuss the stigma surrounding medication and mental health care, and explore the critical role of community support in healing. Plus, we take on the impact of censorship in mental health conversations and why we need to advocate for real, accessible resources. 

If you've ever felt unseen or silenced in your postpartum journey, this one's for you. 

Takeaways

• One in five birthing people experience PMADs.
• PMADs can occur anytime during pregnancy and postpartum.
• Birth trauma can significantly impact mental health.
• Community support is crucial for mothers experiencing PMADs.
• It's important to recognize and validate feelings of birth trauma.
• Many mothers suffer in silence due to stigma.
• Access to mental health care is critical for new parents.
• Miscarriage can lead to complex emotional responses.
• The pandemic has exacerbated mental health challenges for mothers.
• Advocating for oneself is key to receiving help. We're the worst, I think we're the worst of all developed nations.
• We don't really talk about the stuff that happens postpartum.
• Medication isn't for everyone, obviously.
• Therapy is a privilege.
• You are worthy of help.
• Community is so immensely supportive.
• No shame in the med game.
• We need to find some pocket friends.
• You deserve support.
• We don't support mental health as we should in this country.

Sound Bites

"One in five birthing people experience PMADs."

"We need to talk about postpartum psychosis more."

"It's okay to not be okay."

"Motherhood is hard, and that's okay."

"It's common, but not normal."

"We are the lucky ones who got help."

"Therapy is a privilege."

"Community is so immensely supportive."

"Medication isn't for everyone, obviously."

"No shame in the med game."

"We need to find some pocket friends."

"You deserve support."

"You are worthy of help."

Got a hot take you want to share?

Send us a message, or email us at Oddmomsoncall@gmail.com. We might just talk about it on the show!

Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Threads, Youtube, and BlueSky!

Transcript

Chelsea (00:34)
hey, you're back with odd moms and we've got a lot of fresh faces, which is really exciting. I'm Chelsea. I'm back. I'm the stay at home mom of two littles and I host Quiet Connection postpartum mental health.

Courtney Ginder (00:50)
Hey, I'm Courtney. I am a mom of two and I am at Beyond PPD on Instagram.

Midori (00:57)
Hi, I'm Midori I have three little girls and my husband, host a podcast called Simply Midori.

Lindsey Basler (01:04)
Hi, I'm Lindsay. I'm a mom of one and an artist and you can find me at lindsay.makesstuff on Instagram.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (01:12)
Hey everyone, I'm Jess, I'm a mom of two. I'm a clinical psychologist, host of Psych Talk Podcast and on social media at Jessica Lee, PhD.

Chelsea (01:21)
So today we are going to talk about, it's kind of relevant as today is International Women's Day, we are going to talk about perinatal mental health and maternal mental health, maternal healthcare. the people in this chat are very well versed in both of those areas. So I'm really excited.

I don't even know where to start. So two of us in this space are Blue Dot ambassadors. If you have not checked out the Blue Dot project, Lindsay and I are both Blue Dot ambassadors through Postpartum Support International. Courtney works for Postpartum Support International. Courtney, do you want to talk about what you do at Postpartum Support International?

Courtney Ginder (02:02)
Yeah, I am on the marketing and communications team. I do social media for PSI. So I am very familiar with the Blue Dot project. I just, I love everything that PSI stands for and it's such a great thing to work there. So I do their social media.

Chelsea (02:15)
love it. Jess is a clinical psychologist and has like, she's gonna have our back with all of the actual facts.

Also, if you have not checked out Jess's social media, I mean, everyone in this group, you need to check out their social media because duh. But Jess drops knowledge like bombs. Like you will see me sharing Jess's. Okay, so now you know that like I'm mostly am running the odd mom's Instagram right now. But Jess's stuff is fire and I'm sharing it all the time. So please.

Follow Jess, follow Lindsay, follow Midori, follow Courtney. You can follow me if you want to. But yeah, so we've got a really good group. Midori, I think everyone but Jess was on Quiet Connection. I was on Jess's podcast. But we've all got perinatal mental health stories and lived experience.

so I mean like quick facts like one in five people, one in five birthing people experience a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder. I'm seeing, I'm curious what you guys are seeing. There have been a lot of things going around and people are saying now one in seven and I'm going and correcting.

that but then I'm like should I be am I missing something and I don't know Jess you're nodding I want to know what your what your knowledge is

Jess Rabon (she/her) (03:36)
So I've seen one in seven with regard to like postpartum depression specifically, but the one in five number is typically what I have seen looking across perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. Well, absolutely.

Courtney Ginder (03:47)
We did. Yeah, sorry. Didn't mean to talk over you, Jess. We typically

do one in five as well at PSI for all of our stats. And I know if you know, Birdie Meyer, she does a lot of the trainings. used to be the president of PSI at one point. she usually says in trainings and when she's giving talks, she says one in five to seven. So that kind of encompasses that whole number, but typically we do the one in five.

Chelsea (04:11)
Okay, yeah, because that was confusing me. I was like, wait a second. I'm pretty sure I know it's one in five, but yeah, one in five birthing people. It also affects partners, non-birthing partners. That statistic is about one in 10, and they can experience any of the perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. I feel like I wanna leave it to the professionals. Like, you wanna give us like a rundown, Jess, of like,

what a PMAD is and and I don't know like that kind of thing.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (04:41)
Sure, I'm happy to do that. So PMAD perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. you know, a lot of time people think of like depression and a lot of times people talk about postpartum depression, but perinatal mood and anxiety disorders can happen anytime during pregnancy and postpartum. But we have, you know, perinatal depression, perinatal anxiety disorder, perinatal OCD.

perinatal PTSD, there's perinatal bipolar and other mood disorders, and then perinatal postpartum psychosis. And I do wanna clarify since this is my first time on this panel, this is not my area of expertise. I am a clinical psychologist, but I work primarily with kids and teens. But typically when talking about perinatal mood and anxiety disorders to individuals, I talk about the symptoms.

signs that you experience are just like any other anxiety, depressive, bipolar, et cetera disorder. It just happens during the perinatal period. So symptoms arise during pregnancy or in that postpartum period.

Chelsea (05:44)
Yeah. And I'm again, because because this is odd moms and we're talking about current events, like, again, we're seeing a big prevalence of there's a lot of scare tactics and fear mongering around especially postpartum psychosis and perinatal psychosis. We're seeing a little bit more of that recently. I'm seeing a little bit more of that recently because there have been cases in the news.

And while perinatal is not as common as the other P.M.A.D.s, it's also not super rare. It's about one in 1,000 births, I believe. But the severity to which you're seeing like in the media or in the movies or in the like...

people who act on their thoughts, that is a very small percentage of people who experience postpartum psychosis. So with all of those disclaimers out of the way, maybe we kind of talk about, like in a nutshell, our experiences or birth trauma or anything like that.

And then we can kind of dive into what the hell all of this is going to look like now that all of the supports that weren't there to begin with are being scaled back even more.

Courtney Ginder (07:04)
Okay, so I experienced postpartum depression with my daughter and she was born in February of 2020. So I got the double whammy of postpartum depression amidst the COVID-19 pandemic. Actually the first case in Indiana was

discovered at the hospital I delivered at. It was like three weeks after she was born. So I wasn't even there. But people were like, my God, did you see it's a community? I'm like, I haven't been there in a week in like three weeks. I'm not home. I'm at home now. But I experienced PPD after the birth of my daughter. I think there was also some anxiety and OCD in there as well because I have OCD in general. I had that outside of my perinatal experience.

And then I also developed prenatal depression with my son. I ended up with gestational diabetes and some severe pelvic pain and just nothing was fun. So I ended up with prenatal depression with him. But just my experience was I'm one of the lucky ones. I got help. I was able to talk to my OB at my six week appointment with my daughter, which was over the phone because COVID. And I'm still salty about that five years later and probably will be for the rest of my life.

But because I talk about my mental health and I already had experience with mental health, I was able to be like, yeah, something's not right. Like something is really wrong here. And so I got help. She coordinated with my primary care practitioner. They're only two floors apart. Like there was no, had to do sharing of records because they're in the same hospital system. Immediately got a telehealth appointment for the next day with my PCP. And she was able to be like, yes, you have depression. We're going to put you on an antidepressant.

My therapist emailed me like literally the next day and was like, hey, we've got telehealth up and running. You want to do telehealth with me? And I was like, yes, please. Something is bad. And so I mean, I got help, but I just shared this stat on my Instagram the other day. Perinatal mood and anxiety disorders affect 800,000 people in the US every year. Only 25 % of those people are even identified and treated. 25%. That's ridiculous.

And so every time I talk about my story, I'm like, I'm lucky. And I should be, I'm the exception. Like so many parents just suffer in silence and it doesn't have to be that way.

Lindsey Basler (09:17)
I'll jump in and agree with you Courtney. I am lucky also because I did get help, but it did take me quite a while to figure that out. was probably, gosh, I knew something was wrong. Probably around the, I guess that six week mark, but I didn't realize that I had experienced birth trauma and that's really what was kind of hanging on.

probably until closer to the maybe 10 or 11 month mark. I gave birth during the pandemic also, it was a little later on, it was September of 2020. So I didn't get some of the benefits. I have a friend that is about to give birth now and she's talking about how she had a doula kind of come into her life taking parenting classes. And I'm like, what's that like? We didn't have, that wasn't even an option. And I'm so happy for her that she is finding all these supports that I...

I hope that, you know, they are sticking around for the future, but I experienced postpartum depression. Mostly for me, anxiety and OCD were at the forefront of that. And then later on was figuring out that the birth trauma that I experienced was really kind of, I guess, at the root of all those things. And for me, it was at that 10 or 11 month mark where I was like,

Okay, I was able to go on a medication for the anxiety, it wasn't until that point that I realized it's not enough that I need to seek therapy as well and really talk about this more. And that was probably the time that I started finding people like the birth trauma mama on Instagram and seeking out other people's stories. have one of my best friends is a therapist and she actually just asked me this past week. She was like, hey, she was like,

I am seeing a rise in people talking about having postpartum OCD. what do you want to talk? We've talked about it before, but can we talk more about your experience? And I'm like, yeah, of course. What do you want to know? And she's like, I just want to know what are the things that really helped you get through that? And I'm like, that is an excellent question. I was like, I'm going to have

to sit here and really think about that because at the time I didn't even know what was happening to me because I had so little knowledge of what was happening to me. so I honestly I was like, I have a very hard time answering this question for you because when it was happening, I had pretty much zero knowledge of what it was and what was going on.

So it wasn't until almost a year later that I sought therapy out myself and other people's stories and then eventually found the blue dot that I was able to kind of in retrospect go, okay, these are the things that was going on with me. So honestly, I was like, I don't even know that I could answer your question at this point in time other than hearing other people's stories is really one of the only things that helped push me through that period.

Courtney Ginder (12:22)
And that's so common too. I mean, I talk all the time about how I was like, I don't have postpartum depression because I'm like, yeah, I'm crying all the time and everything is terrible. And I have these horrible thoughts that I'm a terrible mom and this was a mistake, but it's not postpartum depression because I don't want to hurt myself. Ta-da! And my husband, bless him, he knew something was wrong with me from the get-go. I started having symptoms pretty much immediately.

Like he was constantly like, can you call your OB? Can you text your therapist? Like something is not right. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, we're fine. Everything is fine because people think that it's one, it's only postpartum depression, that it's not anxiety. There's not OCD. There's not bipolar. There's not PTSD. There's all this. It's only depression. And then they think that postpartum depression is crying all the time and wanting to hurt yourself or your baby. And that's those are two possible symptoms, but there's also the guilt and shame. There's also the

you know, feeling that you've got the eating and sleep disturbances, which it's hard for sleep anyway, because no one's sleeping when you have a newborn. But there's all these other symptoms that nobody really talks about.

Chelsea (13:27)
I know one of the other things that jumped out at me too is when you were talking about how it took you so long to recognize your own birth trauma. And I think there, I'm seeing a little bit more of people kind of discussing birth trauma in general, but like the consensus is, and I believe wholeheartedly, like if you feel you experienced birth trauma, you experienced birth trauma. It doesn't matter.

what it was, what it looked like to anyone else. If you feel that you experienced birth trauma, you experienced birth trauma. So I think it's hard for a lot of people, like you said, like to even realize like, maybe this is the root of something here. Cause you're like, no, no, no, that was normal. Right? Like my doctor said that this was okay or that everything was fine. And, but I didn't feel like it was fine. don't know. I want to hear about

Jess and Midori's experiences.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (14:21)
I can go next, jumping on the pandemic baby train. So my daughter was born January of 21. So I was pregnant throughout like the entire pandemic. And retrospectively, I probably would have met criteria for perinatal anxiety during that time, but we were also in a pandemic and I work in a hospital. So I was around COVID and all of that, like all the time. But with my daughter, I...

struggle with postpartum anxiety. And it's actually interesting as a psychologist, like obviously I know all the signs and symptoms. I was on the lookout for postpartum depression, because I have a history of depression. I mean, I have an extra of anxiety too. I'm like anxious all the time, but I was really on the lookout for postpartum depression. I was like, I don't have it. Like this is great. I'm not crying all the time. I'm not doing this. And it wasn't until I returned to work after got 12 weeks, which I know

anybody outside of the U S listening to this is like what, but like, am very lucky that I got 12 weeks at home and I returned to work and like, could not function. And so just like Courtney and Lindsay were saying, I'm one of the lucky ones. I looked for a, therapists who specialized in perinatal mental health. since we were in the pandemic, I found a online therapist, which is what I wanted somebody that did telehealth. So I could.

have my daughter with me if I needed to schedule on the weekends and things like that and got into therapy. But I tell this story all the time. I remember filling out the GAD, which is an anxiety screener. And I've administered this a million times in my life. And I was going through and I was like, gosh, I'm anxious. And I told my husband and he was like, yes, like I could have told you.

you have postpartum anxiety. But like even as a psychologist, like I didn't recognize it in myself. So like Lindsay, when you were talking about, you knew something was wrong, but didn't really recognize it. know that I feel like that's experience of so many people, even people in the field that do this all the time. And then with my son, so I'm only nine months postpartum right now. I didn't have any of those experiences. The pregnancy was totally different, one because the pandemic was.

over going back to birth trauma. Like I would not consider my birth with my daughter traumatic. I did do a lot of grief work with my therapist around what I expected pregnancy and birth to look like because the first time I was pregnant during the pandemic, I ended up having to have a C-section, which was like not part of my plan. And then, you know, going through pregnancy years later, not during a pandemic.

getting to have a V back and like the birth that I was envisioning for my first was like so immensely healing for me. but I know not everybody gets that experience, but it did put into perspective. I didn't realize how much like grief I was still holding on to from my first experience, as well. So what about you Midori?

Midori (17:20)
So, I have three girls. So my first was born in February of 2019. So she turned one right when the pandemic, like a week before the world shut down. And we, I birthed all three of my kids in Chicago. So I had this like first birthday for Roya. Well, mind you, before each of my kids, I've miscarried two to three times before each of my children.

so my husband and got married and we waited five years to have kids. Cause like that, whatever we just like, we just did. And anyway, so I just thought you just like get you like have sex, you get pregnant and like, you just like move on with your life. Like it's not like no one tells you differently or like I was never told like things happened along the way. So when I miscarried my first baby, I was like, I fail like I'm like my

woman, my like, this is what like women are designed to do. Like we're like taught like you procreate. And I remember going to therapy and he was like, he was like, yeah, you also like you even though you don't have a baby in your arms, like you have all like the hormonal imbalances. and then you have all like the mental things that you get to go through. And I was like, okay, cool. So he was like, I was like, so like, what does this

he was like, you're probably going to experience like shame, guilt, fear, because you, your whole life, you're told like, this is what happens. Like you have sex, you get pregnant, you have a baby, you have sex, you get pregnant, you have a baby. And so like as a, when women experience miscarriages, like you feel like a failure. I was like, cool. I was like, why don't feel that right now? And he's like, okay, it's totally fine. I'll see you next week. So then like time progresses and

I was like, my God, I do feel like a failure. Like I do feel like my body failed me. And like there's nothing you can do to like fix it, right? Cause it's your body and there's like nothing actually wrong. And I remember my OB at the time who I'm like probably a doctor's worst nightmare. And thankfully he's been my doctor for like over 20 years now, which also makes me feel like very old. But I remember when I miscarried, was like,

there's nothing you could have done to like start this or stop this and you just like get to grieve. And I was like, but this isn't like a, no one teaches you like pregnancy equals grieving. Everyone teaches you like pregnancy equals happiness. So I got to like grieve not only like the baby that you, not only the baby that we, I lost, but also like grieve my expectations of like what entering motherhood was like supposed to look like, right?

And then what was really interesting to me was like, I get a lot of attention, right? Cause I'm the mom. like, I'm going through all these things. What was really like heartbreaking to me years, like a couple of years after I looked back and I'm like, I totally neglected like my husband's grieving and that, cause I was like so like selfishly survived, like whatever.

Adjective term you want to put in there just like so and everyone was like so everyone's like focused on the mom, right? But it's like the father or the dad or what like also goes through an extreme grieving process that like now and We now that when we have friends or people that we know like go through marriage miscarriages my husband like tag him like okay I like to check on the mom and like can you check on the dad because I? Feel like as the dad like you don't you get to be like the strong person for the mom like so that was like really hard for me

to like mentally reconcile. But thankfully when I had my other miscarriages, I feel like I was like a pro at miscarriages. So was like, I know what to do now. but anyway, so she was born and I made her first birthday and then everything like shut down and we were in Chicago. So everything was like hyper, right? So like the parks weren't opening, everything was closed. There was no end in sight. And then I had my second, same as Jess, like January, I think January of 21, right? Cause I just turned three.

so with my first baby, I probably literally had almost like 400 people in my, like what's the room they transferred you to? Whatever room you're like in for three days. So I like had all these visitors. So I thought that was like normal. So when I had my second during Omnicron, no one was allowed in the hospital and I was like, and like you have to stay in your house for 60 days, you can't take her out of the house. And I was like, like it was just such a different.

I was like, I literally don't think I can do this. Like, this is crazy. So that was really hard. And then I feel like I was graced with like a summer baby in August of '24 so like six months ago. So that it was like easier because it's a summer, well, it's summer in the Midwest. So I was able to like get back to life quicker in a sense.

but yeah, so I just feel like, but sharing, like knowing that there's other people that miscarry, it's like a way to like, work through your thing and like be there for others and like sit with the pain of your pain for healing and their pain while they're like going through it. It's like such a space. Like I'm not grateful for my miscarriage, but I'm grateful for like the life experience that I get to have now.

to sit with those because they're not going to stop. Miscarriages are going to continue to happen. And it's interesting when we talk about trauma, when you talk about birth trauma, Chelsea, so my husband's a trauma therapist. And it's so interesting to me when you said if you feel like you had birth trauma, it's so interesting to when you talk to me, like, no, I've never had any trauma in my life. But the basis of trauma, the definition of trauma is any life experiences that has shifted your life to any degree.

Having a baby shifts your life to any degree. So like it's trauma. And I think if we're able, I like really appreciate that this like, like people are talking about trauma more. whatever scale you people place it on, but I feel like everyone's gone through trauma. And like we, as a society, I've learned to just normalize like the things that we go through because we're supposed to, which is like so wild to me. And I feel like as moms that go through

all these different mental, emotional, hormonal imbalances, like it's not normal. Like it is, like, like it is, cause that's what we get to do is when we choose to have babies and like, it doesn't mean it's normal to like feel and experience these things. So I'm grateful for like other women and people that have gone through things to just be like, yeah, it's not normal. And it's okay to like not be okay. And like you're also

going to get to the other side of this. And there's a community of people out there that will sit with you in it. And I think that's the beautiful piece of anywhere, because wherever you are on the political spectrum, wherever you're on the religion spectrum wherever you're on any of those polarizing spectrum, I think we can all bond on the fact it's hard. Motherhood is hard. So I think that's the beautiful thing that we choose to be a part of.

Back to you, Chels

Chelsea (23:52)
Yeah. my God, no,

no, but no, what you said, what you said and I, is telling, I can't remember if it was Courtney that said it to me. I feel like it was either Courtney or Jess and I don't actually remember because I don't, I'm a mom and I don't have a brain, but I used to, when I first started podcasting, I would say like, this is normal. Like these things are normal and

so I feel like it was one of you and if it wasn't okay but someone said to me like it's not normal but it is common yes

Courtney Ginder (24:26)
That was me because I was going to say that it's common. It's not normal. It's common.

One in five birthing people will get it. But that doesn't make it normal. Like you don't have to feel like crap. You don't have to feel like a terrible parent. Yes, parenthood is hard, but there should be parts that you enjoy. There should be parts that bring you happiness. You should not be anxious or depressed or traumatized by all of it. Like none of that makes it normal.

Chelsea (24:54)
Yeah, exactly. I completely, like I shifted my wording around it completely on my podcast, because my podcast is all perinatal mental health. And that's like one of my favorite things too, is when I can learn, I don't know, I just like learning and evolving. And when you said it to me, it was like a light, I was like, yeah, like.

No shit. No, it's not normal. It's not normal to feel like this, but it's super common. just like Midori said, like, there is a whole community of people experiencing this. And I think, again, like, I don't remember who said it, but like, and maybe it was Midori again. I am not

I'm not happy that I went through what I went through and I'm not like, yeah, like, but I'm so I do feel so thankful and so grateful for the community that has come from experiencing what I experienced. And I think, I mean, I didn't talk about my experience at all, but like in the quickest little nutshell.

because it's very complicated. if you want to know more, go to Quiet Connection and find my episode because we could be here all day. so I had postpartum depression with my first and I kind of like white knuckled it through that one. And then seven years later, I had my second and she's two and a half now. And it was a completely different ball game. I had a postpartum hemorrhage at home.

My daughter was watching me bleed out on the floor. Then I was hospitalized for that for a while, which then turned into very acute perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. had the gambit. Postpartum psychosis was on the table for a little while, but they decided that it was closer to OCD. I was hospitalized three times for suicidal ideation because

Not only was I so mentally ill, I was also physically sick, couldn't eat for months. I survived on Ensure And yeah, and it was crazy and it was bananas. And I felt like I was the only person on the planet who had ever felt this way before because I had, just like you guys were saying, I had anxiety. I had depression. I was like, this isn't that. This isn't that. That doesn't make you sick.

Spoiler alert, I also had a brain tumor, which we didn't find out until a year ago. So that may have contributed to a lot of it. but yeah, and so taking the step later, like everyone else in this chat did of advocating for yourself, again, we're the lucky ones, we're the ones who had teams behind us, we're the ones who advocated for ourselves or had someone advocating for us so that we could get the support that we needed.

because you do, feel completely alone. And my worry, like without making this an episode so that this isn't an episode of Quiet Connection, this isn't an odd mom thing, is like my worry is that now that there are rollbacks on things like Medicare and Medicaid, so that's going to inhibit access to, first of all, healthcare.

And as well as mental health care, there's there's cutting of funding of all kinds of mental health resources as well. My worry is that we're going to see a rise in maternal mortality, maternal mortality, as well as really scary outcomes just for families in general. I'd love to hear what you think.

Courtney Ginder (28:26)
and our maternal mortality

rate is not great anyway. It's one of the worst of developed nations. We are the worst. I mean, it's bad anyway. Like we do not take care of our moms and our birthing parents. We do not. I mean, I had one of my dear friends had postpartum preeclampsia. And I mean, we talk about preeclampsia when you're pregnant. We don't talk about the postpartum version. So I feel like, I mean,

Chelsea (28:30)
We're the worst, I think we're the worst of all developed nations.

Courtney Ginder (28:54)
with my daughter, had episodes of hypertension with her and I was actually induced because it was my blood pressure was starting to hang out in like the 130 over 90s range. And my OB was like, nope, we're cutting you off. Like we're not letting this get any worse. And I think some of it too was like white coat hypertension because I'm an anxious individual and that's just who I am. But so I mean, when I was discharged with her, I got the rundown of like, this is what postpartum preeclampsia looks like. But like we don't really talk about

the stuff that happens postpartum. Like we just don't. And talking about that community aspect that we've talked about, like the more I've talked about my story and the more I've talked about perinatal mental health, people like my mom's age, people my grandmother's age, they're like, oh yeah, I felt that way too, but I thought that was just how it was. I'm like, no, no. Like it's not.

Chelsea (29:47)
It doesn't have to be. And another aspect, again, like to add into all of this is when we talk about birth education and a lot of you guys were robbed of that because you had pandemic babies. I did not experience that. But I'm worried too that there's not going to be access to those kinds of classes. And those kinds of classes, I don't know what your experiences were then versus now, but like,

I didn't get any sort of info about perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. I got like, okay, this is how you breathe through a contraction and we're going to watch a video of a birth now and here's how your partner can support you. So it wasn't even really that in depth to begin with, but I'm worried that like insurance isn't going to cover it or they're just not going to be available.

Lindsey Basler (30:35)
I wanted to jump in here and kind of piggybacking off of when Midori was talking about miscarriages and then talking about, you know, not having the resources. this is just, just my first hand experience watching someone just like getting their possible care just like literally shoved out the door.

I've spent a lot of time helping loved ones find care for substance abuse and I've spent hours upon hours waiting with them. And this past time that I was helping, I've actually never publicly talked to about this. So here we are. This past April when I was helping someone seek treatment and I was waiting with them in the waiting room.

there was another there was a woman in the waiting room waiting to seek treatment. She was there. She wanted the help and she was obviously under the influence of something but she was having an incredibly hard time. She was having a hard time filling out her paperwork and other people had tried to help her. I tried to help her. My brother had tried to help her and eventually she

She mentioned when she was talking that she was there, she had a miscarriage, she didn't know what was happening. And she, you just knew she was in severe mental distress, substance issue or not. And I could just feel that, was probably a lot of the root that was going on. And eventually she was just apparently too rowdy for the waiting room and they kicked her out. Like they made her leave.

And I don't know who picked her up if they called a taxi for her. I mean, she literally fell out the door and my dad ran out and helped her get up and get into this car. And they they just forced her out. And I think about her, gosh, at least once a week wondering, you know, if she ever got the help that she needed. And then thinking, you know, could I have said more like to them?

or something, but I'm like, They have a psychiatric facility there and a substance abuse program there. Like it is a dual program. Why are they shoving her out the door? Just because I mean, she was there with no support system and couldn't really figure it out. And, you know, as a woman, one of the only women in the waiting room, knowing that's probably some of the root of what's happening with her. And they just shoved her out the door. Like how, how much more is that going to happen?

as we continue to cut things back. So she's just someone that I think about, especially when we're recording this podcast and sharing our stories. And as a lot of us have said, we're the lucky ones who had support and support teams. I was just kind of one of the people firsthand that I saw who had no support and seeing how unlucky and unfortunately, I really hope that she got to find that support and

is hopefully doing okay right now.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (33:28)
Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. And I know it's not your story to share, but it was a real life experience that you witnessed. And I don't know exactly when that was and probably not appropriate to put a time stamp on that. But I think it also speaks to how like even the current state of where we are before any rollbacks and things. And I can speak to this as a mental health professional. Like I say all the time, therapy is a privilege. Like in our...

country in the United States. Therapy is a privilege. It's not accessible. And I know Chelsea, you had mentioned like rollbacks for Medicaid, Medicare. And, you know, I live in South Carolina, our South Carolina Medicaid does not do well for mental health. And most therapists in the area do not take it because reimbursement rates, and I know people hate talking about this, but reimbursement rates from Medicaid, at least our state Medicaid,

are so low that the people that are supposed to be helping people struggling can't afford to be paneled with them because I mean, this was years ago, I work for a hospital system, so obviously I'm paneled with it, but we were looking at the reimbursement rates and it was like $15 for an hour of therapy. And like that's not sustainable for somebody, you know, to live off of. And then Chelsea, I know you and I talked about this on

your episode on my podcast of just like, then even if you do have, you know, professionals in the field who are knowledgeable in perinatal mental health, if you need a higher level of care, higher level of care that specifically understands perinatal mood and anxiety disorders don't really exist. I think there's two, right? Two in the United States. And, you know, then we could talk all day about even like,

when mental health practitioners are going through school and getting training, like we don't learn about treatment of perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. That is all extra training certifications through PSI, who Courtney works for and things like that. And so the pool of even getting mental health care and not to say that somebody who is not perinatal mood and anxiety disorder trained can't help, but they could also harm if they don't understand.

Something that I know has come up a couple of times when we were talking about like, you know, perinatal OCD. I have heard so much that like people get misdiagnosed with like just perinatal anxiety or Chelsea, like you said, perinatal psychosis because people don't understand, even mental health professionals don't understand what to look for specifically in individuals who are pregnant or newly postpartum because yes, some anxiety is typical. I hate the word normal.

I will die on that hill. Some anxiety is typical. Like we want to keep our baby safe. You know, some low mood is typical because of the hormonal shifts. But a lot of times it's just brushed off as like, this is normal, quote unquote. And then when it's not, the care's not even there. And I love that you all keep bringing up community. Cause I think that not to undermine medication or therapy, but like community is so immensely

important when it comes recovering from perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. Community within your family system or, you know, local community, community online, community of sharing stories, all of those things to recognize what you all have already said that we are not alone in how we're feeling.

Chelsea (36:59)
I'm really worried with you just noting like even finding community online. So like that's like my whole thing, right? Like as outside of odd moms, like.

Quiet Connection is about creating community and it's all through social media. I call all of you guys my pocket friends, like from all over the world, because literally I can take out my phone and I can connect with any of you. My worry right now and what I'm seeing is because Meta dominates the social media platforms right now, so not my support group, but my business page for my podcast.

is being censored. And my posts are not being shared or they're being covered with a sensitive filter. And the posts are affirmations or introducing my next guest or saying, Hey, mom, don't forget to heat up the coffee you made this morning and forgot about

And I think because I will hashtag it with like perinatal mental health or mental health matters. It's not a person flagging my comment. I'm getting the notification that meta has automatically flagged my content. That it's dangerous. It's because it's dangerous or because it is sexually explicit, which none of my content is.

sexual in any way. But so I'm really worried about that community and having access to that community if things are going to be continued to be censored in the way that they are because it's so important. It's so important. Are you guys noticing the same thing, especially Courtney, like you are perinatal, like all of your content is that way. Are you noticing any censorship?

Courtney Ginder (38:46)
Mm-hmm.

I haven't seen anything directly, like I haven't gotten notifications directly like you have. I do notice that some of my stuff isn't getting as much reach as it used to. And I wanted to say that it just kind of plays into the stigma around mental health in general and especially around perinatal mental health.

because this is supposed to be the happiest time of your life. Like babies are rainbows and butterflies and nobody talks about how you don't sleep and everything is terrible. I mean, it's not terrible, but I mean, you know, those first weeks are rough. And I mean, but you're supposed to be happy. And when that doesn't happen, when that we talked a little bit about grief and I also went through the grieving process of this is not what I thought my postpartum experience would look like. This is not what I thought motherhood would look like.

you know, all of these things. So I also went through that grieving process as well. And I mean, we're talking, there's talk about, you know, mental health medications being taken away and all of that and how SSRIs are dangerous and they're not. Like my SSRI makes me me. Like it takes away all the crap. Because like, yeah, I mean, I like to take walks outside. I like to get fresh air. I like to journal. I like to, you know, take a long bath. I like, I keep...

orange essential oil in my purse because it smells good and it makes me happy. But that doesn't change like the literal chemical imbalance in my brain that makes me anxious and that makes me obsessive. And so I take my SSRI to balance that and make me me like my SSRI makes me a better person. It makes me a better mom. It makes me me again. And so to hear that misinformation like that is so harmful. And I worry that

I mean, I've had people reach out to me and they're like, I don't want to take medication. And like, I get that. I understand. But if you have a headache, you take ibuprofen and you don't feel bad about it. If you have high blood pressure, you take medication to lower your blood pressure and you don't feel bad about it. So why do we feel bad about taking medication for our mental health? And I I've accepted because I've had mental health concerns my entire life. I've lived with...

what I thought was general anxiety, but I now realize, and my therapist, I now realize is OCD. I mean, I've lived with that my entire life. Hey, like actually, no, like it's not normal to wake up in the dead of night and be like, did I lock the door? And have to go down and check because I don't trust myself that I locked the door. And if I leave the door open, someone's gonna break into my house and hurt my children. Like not normal. And so they're like, I've accepted I will probably be on medication the rest of my life. And I'm fine with that.

Doesn't bother me, but I just worry that people are like, the fresh air didn't make me feel better and the essential oils didn't make me feel better. And with therapy, like you said, Jess, therapy is a privilege. My therapist does not take insurance at all. And I am lucky and privileged that we can pay out of pocket for my therapy sessions every week.

And I used to be a support coordinator for PSI before I had my son and I had to step back from that because I just, I don't have enough hours in my day anymore. But support coordinators were people that once people call or text the PSI helpline and then volunteer talks to them and gives them information and figure out what's going on, they pass that information on to a volunteer in their area. And the volunteer coordinator reaches out and says, hey, you know, I'm in your area.

What do you need help with? Are you looking for a support group? Are you looking for a therapist? Are you looking for it? Like, what do you need help with? Because when you have a baby, you're barely surviving anyway. You don't have time to look up and see, does this therapist meet? Is she available? Do they take my insurance? Do they do this? So the support kind of coordinator does that for you and finds at least three resources for you to reach out to and that sort of thing. And I live in Indiana. I live in a suburb just north of Indianapolis.

And when I was a support coordinator and I would get people from rural southern Indiana or rural northern Indiana in between Lafayette and South Bend, Fort Wayne, there's nothing, absolutely nothing in those areas. And it would break my heart because especially these moms that wanted to be seen in person, I'm like, yeah, you're in the middle of nowhere. There's somebody in Bloomington that can see you, but that's an hour each way for you and you have a brand new baby.

Like there's nothing and it's so inaccessible. And so seeing this misinformation online, it worries me that we're going to see more and more parents and people in general fall through the cracks in their mental health because they're seeing this misinformation and then they're not able to access the treatment that they need.

Chelsea (43:22)
I think it's, you've said it too, and Jess, I see that you want to talk too, but like, medication isn't for everyone, obviously, and I struggle with, I'm not anti-medication at all, but I struggle with the medications that I have to take to be able to function.

Courtney Ginder (43:38)
And it's also

hard to find one that works for you. Like I got lucky and that like the first one I tried worked for me. But I know that's not always the case. Like sometimes it takes two or three tries and you have to be on it for like six weeks for it to reach therapeutic levels in your system and not crap, this didn't work. So now I have to like taper off of it and restart a new one. Like it's a process for a lot of people and that's not fun.

Chelsea (43:40)
Yes.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (43:58)
Yeah, Courtney, I was just gonna say you brought up so many good points. I appreciate you bringing up the stigma, specifically like misinformation, contributing to stigma, but also just like the censorship because as somebody who's been making mental health content online for almost five years at this point, like I have seen over time, like a lot of mental health words get flagged, like suicide is a big one. Like you cannot say suicide on social media. So that's why I've seen this more on TikTok than Instagram.

They changed it to like slewer slide or unaliving, but then that just adds to the stigma like, we're not going to talk about it. We can't even say this word. And, a part of, you know, healing and recovering, like we keep saying, is finding that community and being able to have these conversations. And if most of us feel like we need to find community online, because we are from rural Indiana and there's nobody there or.

You know, maybe we're not from a rural area, but maybe we're a stay at home mom and all of our other friends work and we need that community when we're at home with our kids or whatever. Like, it's just going to add barriers and challenges. And the only other thought I had that, you know, Courtney, when you were talking about medication and mentioning other coping skills, like as a psychologist, I don't prescribe medication, but I work closely with psychiatrists. And I always tell my clients like, you know,

medication may be what you need to then be able to engage in the coping skills you learn. Because for some people, their depression, their anxiety, their OCD, whatever it is, is so bad that they can't even begin to try to journal or get out of bed to go for a walk. so I always describe medication can help relieve some of the symptoms and then therapy, if accessible to you, or coping skills in general.

can help you cope with what you're experiencing.

Chelsea (45:55)
That's exactly how it was described to me, Jess. so my, and I, you all know me, but for listeners, I, no holds barred, you can ask me anything and I'll tell you anything. Like I struggled with, because of everything that I went through, I ended up being put on a benzodiazepine. And I really struggled with that. I'm still on it. I take it as prescribed and, but I fought.

tooth and nail against that prescription because all I, I mean, I have addiction in my family, but when you hear about Benzos, you hear about Benzo addicts and you hear about like it being sold on the streets and it being abused. And I'm like, no, no, no, I don't want that to be me. It's not, spoiler alert. There is no shame in the med game, no matter what med it is that you need, but

the psychiatrist that I was working with. And the most ironic part of this whole thing is I went to one of the two perinatal inpatient facilities in our country and came home and still went back to the hospital and was inpatient again. And that didn't help me either. Three times, three separate places. One place was perinatal specific, nothing. It wasn't until I did

partial hospitalization outpatient treatment with a group of therapists and psychiatrists who had no experience with perinatal mental health that I was finally taken seriously and I was listened to and I was validated. And the psychiatrist, she told me, she's like, I hear you and I see how scared you are, but this is a tool.

so that you can access the coping skills that you're going to learn while you're here. I cried the first night I took the medication, like I didn't want to do it. But then I saw exactly what you were saying. Like as, as the days and the weeks went by, I came alive again and was able to, and it wasn't like, my problems are fixed. I'm all better now. It was, it was like, I can get dressed today.

I can wash my hair today. And now I can hear the people who are telling me about dbt and all of the skills that I need to learn. there are skills that I still use all day every day. Like, let's not mess around. Like I'm using these skills every day. But yeah, no shame in the med game. Also no shame in that if that's not what you want to do, but you are worthy of help. And

finding help is I'm, I just keep thinking about Lindsay, like your experience, what you were saying about that woman who's literally in a mental health facility and they were like, nope, bye bye. So I think, cause we're getting to that point again, moms, where we always record when, our kids are either napping or very briefly occupied with something. I think like, if we can like, let's wrap up on our thoughts or our

hopes of ways that we can kind of continue this communication in this community. I don't have a great answer, but with the censorship that's going on, need to find like you need to build right now. Like I'm telling you, you listening, you need to find some pocket friends or some real life friends. Yeah, Midori

Midori (49:17)
Yeah, obviously, or both. I probably we really have an experience like this censorship that you are referring to. So I don't have anything like I have nothing no value to But I agree, like getting some pocket friends and real life friends and just creating, you know, like authentic connections. And I think

Yeah, like the vulnerability piece is also like super huge. I think that there's a stigma around like the whole like I can't be vulnerable because I have to have it all together or whatever is what really blocks like authentic relationships or friendships or whatever the word you want to use is. But I do think they're super valuable. Like I think about when so like you're I don't even know when but long time ago I had before I got married or I had an abortion. But I was like that was even like

crazy to like go through, right? Like I had, you know, like family and friends who are like, you just, it's never, I mean, it was not really I had planned to go through. I don't think I even really plans to go through that. Maybe they do. But, you know, so it's like, I look back and I'm like, but I had like family and I had friends, but I couldn't imagine being the teenager who walks up to that place. And I am a Christian walking up to the place with picket Christians are like, and I'm like, that's wild. Like, this is wild. And

It just is like crazy, but I think if the, all the access to things that help, you know, like on the other side of that, like once you have an abortion, it's done, right? It's like, how do you help that person or how do you help that individual live their life again? so then before I had my third child, I miscarried and,

I miscarried and then I was like, well, I didn't want another DNC. So I just waited for a month. Nothing happened. So then I got the abortion pill And my doctor, who I've told you, I've had he's been my doctor for decades. He was like, you'll take it. It'll be like a period. You'll be totally fine and call me if you need anything. And I was like, OK, so I literally was working from home and I like took it midday and I was like.

Perfect. Like two hours later, and mind you, my mom's a nurse and she lives with us. Two hours later, I was like, something's happening. And I was like, I literally lost eight pounds in 12 hours of like liquid. And I remember calling my friend who's also a nurse being like, I think I'm gonna, I don't think I'm gonna make it. Like, I think this is the end. And I was like, is this normal? And she was like, no, you should call your doctor. So like I had access to like nurses, doctors, like.

I literally texted my doctor. was like, you need to call me. Like I literally think I'm dying because this is not the experience. But it was so crazy to me and him and I have these like conversations. I'm like, this is crazy. I literally, you literally me come into your office. You gave me this pill told me it was going to be like a period and you like sent me home. I was like with nothing. Like it just my like my life, like the life that I get to live, I have access to you. I have access to my mom. I have access to friends, family. Like I'm surrounded by community, but like you're just

giving this pill out to like a teenager and then not supporting her. Like I genuinely looked at my husband, like I was on my toilet. I was like bleeding out. I was throwing up. I looked at him and I was like, bye. Like I was genuinely like, I don't think this is, I think this is end of my life. This is insane. And I went back after all this, I went to him and I was like, you cannot just be giving these out to people. Like you have to equip them with like a person that like has to sit with them, like as available to them.

48 hours that they're on this friggin thing and then support them after this is horrible. And he's like, we literally had like a two hour discussion in his office about like, how like, but I'm like, I'm okay with the process. I'm not okay with you're not going to support them. Like you, we can't just be handing these out like tic tacs. Like this is crazy. Yeah, I was just like, it goes back to like the cutbacks and rollbacks and all these things. It's like, no, we're increasing how readily available these pills are.

Chelsea (52:54)
This is a future episode. This is on our docket.

Midori (53:05)
but we're decreasing the support system that comes behind them. So I'm not against or for the pill. they're medically, you know, if they have, I took it like I met, I've had where I get it and that's fine. But you also need to equally increase like the support that goes behind them. They have to, they get to move like in unison or both of them should be cut. Like if we're going to cut this and we also need to cut that. Cause that's like, like genuinely, I'm like, it's still traumatizing me thinking about like, was like, I'm going to die.

a 30 something like I'm in my mid 30s. Like I'm not like a teenager. We're giving these to teenagers and not giving them support. Like that's, that's more harmful than the actual pill itself, in my opinion. So like the cutbacks are terrifying. And my husband's like I said, it's a trauma therapist, like, like, it's just crazy. Like we don't support mental health at all in this country. Well, I shouldn't I don't like hyperbolic comments, but we don't support mental health as we should in this country, because we would be a much healthier, holistic people group if we could.

Just be like, yeah, let's support mental health so everyone can get

Chelsea (54:03)
think that's hyperbolic. And I feel like this is episode three now. And this is, we've said it every single time. It's like all of these issues that we're talking about come back to mental health, physical health, all of it, it all comes back to mental health. I want to give space to anyone else who wants to give like wrapping up thoughts. But like, I don't know what do you what

Midori (54:14)
All of

Chelsea (54:25)
What are you going to do? What are you finding helpful in terms of staying connected and staying supported in this really uncertain and freaking scary time?

Courtney Ginder (54:36)
I think like you said, just finding those people, whether it's people that you know in real life or it's people that you know through social media, your pocket friends, just finding those people that you can talk to about anything with and know that they are not going to judge you. They are not going to think that something's weird or something wrong with you. Like validate your experiences because that validation is such a huge, huge piece. And to also, I mean, to remember that you are not alone and you are, like Jess said, you are worthy of help.

You are worthy of support. You deserve it. So no matter what that help looks like, you are worthy of it and you need it and you deserve it. There's nothing unworthy about you.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (55:18)
Yeah. And Chelsea, this wasn't exactly your question, but kind of moving forward, you know, I think finding resources, like even if it's not a connection of like a physical person, but like listening to podcasts, educating yourself on perinatal postpartum mental health concerns so that you can advocate. know Chelsea, you brought that up, like advocate for yourself, you know, be familiar. And I know this is a lot of

Lindsey Basler (55:18)
So,

Go ahead.

Jess Rabon (she/her) (55:42)
pressure on individuals to educate yourselves. But I have found so often working in the mental health field that people just don't even know what mental health symptoms are or what resources are available. And I think one of the best things you can do for yourself, if you're listening to this and have children and are worried about the uncertainty, educate yourself, find ways that you can advocate for yourself.

In addition to that community piece, I didn't want to just repeat everything everybody's already said, because it's been so great. community support is so necessary, but so is like knowledge and self-advocacy, speaking up, staying informed. Go ahead, Lindsay.

Lindsey Basler (56:28)
I just wanted to add that also just remembering to give yourself that push to reach out or just say hey to those support people, not just, you know, knowing that you have them and remembering, yes, they're there. I know for me, I can really, you know, cocoon inwards and not want to reach out. But if you, I like to tell myself, you know, if I think about them, I'm gonna say something to them. You know, if you cross my mind, I'm just gonna say, hey, it's so easy to get bogged down with

you know, the new news every single day and just, but you know, if I see something and I, you know, I have a friend that I think, like, instead of just internalizing this, I, know, having a conversation with them would be a lot more productive than just being sad about it or sitting at home and going, what are we going to do now? I have a little ritual that I think everyone should do with me and one of my best friends. If we're just thinking about you, but I don't.

really want to say anything but I want you to know that I need your support or I just don't really want to say it. I just text them three hearts and it just is like hey I'm thinking about you I might need you I don't really want to talk and then sometimes it's just a way to open up that door so maybe you can just establish something like that with someone to say I don't know what to say but you know we need to talk soon so reach out reach out to your people.

Chelsea (57:47)
I love that I do the exact same thing. I tell people if I do the heart hands, if I do the three heart hands and I send it to you, it means I don't know exactly what to say. But know that my I'm that this is me giving you my whole heart. okay, odd moms, we are at that point again, where we've got to wrap up. But to continue on what everyone here has said, reach out, educate yourself.

Find what works for you. And no joke, if you message oddmomsoncall or if you email oddmomsoncall at gmail.com, someone's gonna respond to you. We want to hear from you. We want you in this community. We want to know what you're going through and we will talk about it. So yeah.

I don't have any silly pop-tart quotes this time like Courtney did, but yeah, just this is another topic I think we will explore more and stay tuned because in the future we will be talking about reproductive rights and access to abortion and things like that. So if you caught Midori's and you were like, I want to talk about that, we're going to talk about it. Don't worry, we're going to talk about it.